Minutes of CHRA/50+ Group
MINUTES OF JOINT FORUM MEETING " 50+ FORUM and CLOUGH HALL RESIDENTS ASSOCIATION"- HELD ON THURSDAY 22ND MAY 2008 at CLOUGH HALL SCHOOL at 7.00pm
PRESENT :-
JOINT CHAIR :- Mr M Reynolds - 50+ Forum / Mr G Sutton - CHRA
GUEST SPEAKER: - Fiona McEvoy - Tax Payers Alliance
PANEL MEMBERS :- Clr John Taylor-Leader Staffs County Council, Clr Simon Tagg-Leader Newcastle Borough Council, Sylvia Butler- ex Councillor Newcastle-under-Lyme Borough Council, Clr Robin Studd-Deputy Leader Newcastle-under-Lyme Borough Council.
RESIDENTS: - 32
TOTAL ATTENDANCE: - 39
The Chairman of CHRA ( Graham Sutton) opened the meeting - the subject of which was ‘Council Tax'- and welcomed the panel and the audience, explaining that Mike Reynolds would be chairing the meeting. He thanked Mr Tait, Head of Clough Hall School, for the use of the hall; the pupils who were there to help, and also Richard Morris who had helped to organise the meeting. He then announced the following:
Local burglaries - a person has been arrested and is helping police with their enquiries.
Colin Stepney PCSO has been awarded ‘Best PCSO of the Year' for Staffs; Colin has expressed his thanks for the welcome and the support he has received in the area.
The Westmorland Unit - the next surgery will take place on Friday June 13th at Hollinwood at 5pm..
Planning for Real - brochures will be delivered shortly in the Clough Hall area; Councillors John Taylor and Ray Slater were thanked for their help with funding to produce the brochures.
The next CHRA meeting will be held on Tuesday June 17th at the Hollinwood Centre. Lisa Denny from North Staffs Carers, and Mr Robbin (‘The Law is an Ass!') will be the guest speakers.
Mike Reynolds then thanked Graham, expressing his pleasure at working with CHRA, and introduced the panel members; he also thanked them for giving their time and the Head and staff of the school for preparing the hall. He then invited Fiona McEvoy to speak.
Fiona explained that the Taxpayers' Alliance (TPA) has 18,000 members across the nation, and many activists; it has a permanently manned London office in addition to regional offices in Birmingham and Durham, and membership is free. The organisation campaigns strongly against high taxes and government waste and is non-partisan; it communicates with the public via the media and its grassroots network. More people are aware of taxation today - in a poll 4 years ago 47% of those asked thought that taxation was too high; in September 2007 that number had risen to 67%. TPA would like to see
- council tax replaced by a fairer system based on people's ability to pay
- sensible cuts in taxation - 10 years ago the average band D rate was £646; in 2007 it had risen to £1,268.
Many local authorities have increased council tax while cutting services, but significant savings can be made by reducing wasteful spending; it is possible to maintain services and reduce council tax (Hammersmith and Fulham councils were quoted as examples).
From data gathered by the TPA Fiona argued that by taking measures including a reduction of council spending on publicity, and a reduction in the number of middle managers, Newcastle Borough Council could save £4.85 million, equating to a decrease in council tax of £85 on every band D property, and Staffs County Council could save £6.15 million, equating to a reduction of £110 on every band D property. She also argued that money wasted by councils led to an increase in tax bills (eg money spent on ‘non-jobs' that didn't exist 10 years ago, PR departments and failed projects), and said that councils should be encouraged to make savings in order to reduce council tax. Finally, she concluded that TPA activists can make a difference by working alongside local government, and that while a lone complaint can be ignored, politicians listen when complaints come by the thousand.
Mike Reynolds thanked Fiona, and asked the members of the panel to introduce themselves to the audience; he then invited questions from the audience.
(The names of the panel members answering the questions have been abbreviated as follows:
John Tayor - JT; Simon Tagg - ST; Sylvia Butler - SB; Robin Studd - RS; Fiona McEvoy - FM.)
Q1: Of the total amount of council tax collected in the Borough, what percentage is collected in the Kidsgrove region? Of the total amount expended on services, what percentage of the total collected is spent in the Kidsgrove area?
JT - The annual council tax paid on a band D property is broken down as follows -
Staffs County Council £985.44
Newcastle Borough Council £170.07
Police Authority £166.16
Fire Authority £63.24
Kidsgrove Town Council £14.50
Total £1,399.41
Council tax represents 24-25% of the local authority's money - the rest comes from grants and charges. Staffordshire has a population of 800,000; Kidsgrove has 9 schools which have a total budget of £9 million (more than is collected in council tax), a library, a registration office in the Town Hall, Social Services establishments, roads and streetlights which have to be funded. The Mount Road Project is costing £0.75 million. Kidsgrove does not get a bad deal.
ST - £46 million is collected in council tax by Newcastle Borough Council; £8.7 million (18%) of this comes from Kidsgrove. However, £3.5 million (21% of the total amount) is spent on Kidsgrove - eg to support sports facilities, parks, waste recycling collections, street cleaning, housing benefit administration, pest control, recreation. Improvements are taking place In Bathpool Park, and the restoration of the Victoria Hall cost £300,000. The people of Kidsgrove are getting a good deal.
RS - Expenditure directly attributable to Kidsgrove (eg Sports Centre, Clough Hall Park)
Total £391,934 ie 2.3%
Expenditure apportioned to Kidsgrove based on household numbers (eg council tax and housing benefits administration, household waste collection, recycling collection)
Total £985,141 ie 5.8%
Expenditure apportioned to Kidsgrove based on population figures (eg election costs, community recreation scheme, dog warden service)
Total £810,490 ie 4.7% Total of all the above £2,187,565 ie 12.8%
Other council expenditure (eg street cleansing, building control, development control)
Total £1,427,714 ie 8.3%
Overall total: £3,615,279 ie 21.1%
SB - There have been many improvements in Kidsgrove over the years, eg Birchenwood and Bathpool Park; there have also been huge improvements in schools over the last 12 years. The largest slice of the Budget goes to education, with care for the elderly in second place.
Mike Reynolds thanked John Taylor and Simon Tagg for their hard work in researching the answer to the question.
Q2: A fairer system of local taxation to pay for essential services must be based on a person's ability to pay. If you accept that statement, what would be your preferred alternative to the current Council Tax system?
FM - It is not for the TPA to give preferred alternatives, but a system based on ability to pay would be much better, rather than having mechanisms for reimbursement which are counter-productive.
JT - Whatever the system chosen there would be difficulties for some people, and people are more concerned with whether they are getting services or not. Council tax is not a property tax, it is a hybrid tax based on property. If one person lives in a property they are entitled to a 25% reduction, and there are allowances to reduce the tax depending on circumstances. There have been no changes to the banding system for a long time, and that is now unfair.
ST - Council tax is not perfect but it is the only fair way; tax rises have been below inflation, and the tax gives value for money within the system.
SB - The Lyons Report recommended that council tax should be kept, but that there should be a new higher rate band and a new lower rate band; this would have meant revaluation which would have led to uproar, as house prices have increased phenomenally since council tax was introduced. It is estimated that 8 million properties would be affected - 4 million`would gain, and 4 million would lose. Council tax is a regressive tax ( the less income you have, the higher the percentage of your income you have to pay in council tax), but someone has to pay or some services may need to go - there is not a bottomless pit of money, and hard decisions have to be made.
RS - The Liberal Democrats support a local income tax based on an ability to pay, and the phasing in of an income tax system. Students who have incomes should also pay - everyone who can afford to pay should pay.
(Members of the audience commented that there is a group of people who pay nothing - Sylvia Butler confirmed that 4 million people pay no council tax.)
Q3: Why do council tax increases usually run above the rate of inflation? Council tax is an issue for first-time buyers, and is a factor in repossession.
JT - It depends on which inflation figures are used. Everything has gone up, people want a pay rise, pension contributions increase - the Council has inflation problems too, eg tarmac is more expensive than it was a year ago.
SB - This is a real issue for Local Authorities because of the statutory obligations placed on Councils. There is often no extra funding, but extra services have to be provided (eg food inspectors, bereavement services) and this adds to the inflation.
FM - Some Councils can cut council tax, others can't.
ST - For 3 years the increases have been lower than previously in Newcastle; £56 million is spent on local services and we don't want to cut services.
RS - If you recycle and encourage your neighbours to recycle then this could mean less tax. Expenditure has been looked at in detail and this year the increase is 2.5%, where previously it was 2.7%.
Mike Reynolds asked ‘If the percentage increase is low, which services have been lost?'
JT - There is a difference between loss of service and change of service; there have been some reductions but not across the board - eg library services (which are not a statutory duty) have not been affected because people want the service to continue.
The original questioner commented on the state of the pavements in Newcastle, and on the fact that the Highways Department never answered the phone.
Q4: Sir Michael Lyons recommended that only income should eventually be taken into consideration, and that the savings limit should be raised when setting council tax. Do you think this is fair?
FM - Yes, fairer than the current system.
RS - Any system is fairer than the current one.
ST - There is a cost to a reduction in council tax.
A comment was made from the audience on the need to attract employment to the area.
RS - New businesses are being attracted to the area, eg in Lyme Dale and the Chatterley Valley. We want jobs that are not warehouse jobs, and the Borough Council are very alive to this situation.
JT - This issue is linked to education and training; people must have the right skills and the area has to be sold to business. Education standards need to be raised.
FM - This is a good area with good services and low rates, and it will attract businesses.
Q5: How did the council tax rates we have today come about? Extra bands have been included in Wales. If we don't continue to contribute to pension schemes, pensioners won't be able to pay the amount demanded.
FM - Local income tax/VAT would be preferred. There is a level playing field where pension contributions are concerned in the public and private sectors.
ST - The pension system needs to be sorted out. Members' allowances have been frozen for 2 years in a row, and the allowances offered don't attract new councilors. Since 2006 the Council has looked carefully at new posts/existing posts to see if the post really fulfils the role and gives value for money to the taxpayer.
JT - Staffordshire is 4th from the bottom in the list of County Councils regarding the amount of council tax set, ie all above have a higher council tax rate than Staffordshire.
Fiona McEvoy then had to leave; she was thanked by Mike Reynolds and presented with flowers. She reminded the audience that all the statistics she had quoted were from Council records and were available under Freedom of Information.
Q6: Why do the Council employ outside consultants when the staff employed should be capable of producing reports and carrying out any surveys that are considered necessary?
What steps should be taken to ensure that money is not wasted on attendance and travel to events unlikely to bring any benefit to the locality?
Could money be saved by avoiding excessive expenditure on self-publicity, particularly with glossy expensive publications?
ST - Consultants are necessary for specialist work, eg legal documents need to be watertight, and are used only for that particular work.
RS - Experts are expensive - we can't afford to keep them permanently, and in housing issues, for example, someone from outside needs to check what is being done.
SB - In the first year of the present administration consultants were employed for many months, and they recommended a restructuring of the Borough Council; a new Chief Executive was appointed and then another restructuring took place. Last year another team of consultants looked at revenues and benefits and depot services, but the reviews were not widely publicised. The number of editions of The Reporter is to double to 10 and extra staff will be employed. The restructuring is still not right.
A comment was made by a member of the audience that although consultants cost £200,000, over the next 5 years there would be a net saving of £400,000 as a result. Consultations in the last 2 years had been much more productive than before.
ST - Consultants were originally employed by the previous Labour administration; the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats changed this programme which led to the restructuring. This will be reviewed after 6 months, and the improvements suggested will mean an overall saving for the Council. Labour spent £1.6 million on consultants; now, when consultants are used, their advice is implemented.
Adverts previously placed in the Sentinel will now be put in the Reporter, so the money is being used in a different way. Focus editions are planned which will focus on certain areas.
Councillor Silvia Burgess commented that the ward focus and the advertising in the Reporter had been her idea.
Q7: Why does the Borough Council have so many employees who are in such bad health? This is out of line with the real world.
JT - Sickness is an issue, but it's not true that Councils have higher sickness rates than other employers. Injury and sickness are treated differently. Staff are given return to work interviews and see a doctor and other staff employed by Health. Support is given when needed, but sickness levels are coming down.
RS - There has been a problem, but sickness levels have been brought down. Councillors have to make sure that the sickness is genuine.
ST - There is a distinction between long-term and short-term illness; procedures have been put in place to reduce sickness levels.
Q8: When work is put to tender, is this in or out of the Borough?
RS - There has to be open tendering.
JT - There are massive tenders in the County which have to be Europe-wide.
Q9: What opportunities are there for the electorate to scrutinise services provided to ensure that we are getting value for money on the taxes we pay?
SB - There are new scrutiny panels which give people other than councilors the opportunity to be involved, eg experts, members of the public, anyone with an interest.
ST - Any decision can be brought before a scrutiny panel, the public can make their views on planning applications known, and people can use their vote in the local elections - these are held every 3 years for the Borough Council, and every 4 years for the County Council. Use your vote!
RS - Anyone can volunteer to be member of the People's Panel. Public participation is to be extended.
JT - The County Council has had scrutiny panels/committees for a long time, eg in the case of schools evidence is taken from parents. There is a Budget consultation every year to which people are invited; roles and responsibilities are discussed, and they then set what they think should be the council tax/Budget for that year. Council members are available on a daily basis to listen to members of the public - politicians rely on voters.
Mike Reynolds then brought the meeting to a close and thanked the panel members for taking part.
Graham Sutton ( Chair ) Clough Hall Residents Association ................................................